Beyond <i>Wild</i> With Cheryl Strayed

Don: So, Cheryl, first of all, I just want to say what an extraordinary honor and pleasure it is to share a stage with you. It really, really is.

Cheryl: Thank you.

Don: So, I wanted to begin by asking you a question about, the journey of the book. When did you decide to write it, how did you put it together? Were there rattlesnakes and bears on that journey too?

Cheryl: There were so many. Yeah, I met my husband nine days after I finished my hike. So, from the very beginning my husband was saying, you should write about your hike. And from the very beginning what I was saying is I don't have anything to say about my hike. And this is a really, it was a really important thing for me. And when I teach writing, I always talk about this. The difference between having a big experience taking a really interesting trip or having a big loss or you know, whatever it is that we find kind of, you know, the stuff of life, the drama of life. There's a difference between living it or telling a sort of fun story about it at a dinner party, And... making... turning it into literature. And, you... you really can't write, I think intelligently and deeply about a journey until you have some consciousness about how, you know, what the journey meant. And for me that took some time. It took growing into my own life and essentially making manifest some of the things that I learned on the trail. But I think perhaps, most importantly, it's about trying to figure out how your experience, whether be your loss or your gain or your victory or your wonderful year in France or whatever it is, until it's not just about you. Until that you're, until you're writing with a consciousness about you know, going to those deep personal places in a way that sort of speaks to the human experience.

And, so until I had all of that, or until at least I had a glimmer of that, I didn't feel compelled to write Wild. And, I thought it's going to be forever until I can finish another book. Because I have these two little kids and I had all of these... I was, you know, trying to earn a living working as a freelance writer and so forth. And, so I had this idea that I would write an essay about my hike on the Pacific Crest Trail. I thought I maybe had like 20 pages worth of something to say. And so I began writing it and as writing often does, you know, I found that I kept it was like quicksand you know, every step I would take I would go in deeper. And pretty soon I was like 80-90 pages into it, this essay and I hadn't even set foot on the trail. And, you know, which was problematic. So, It became the book.

I mean, it sort of... I... you know, the... I can tell you actually there's this scene in the book, and I loved that it's in the film pretty much exactly the way it's in the book, is I'm packing my backpack for the first time on the morning that I'm to set out on my hike, which, just for the record don't do that. And I'm packing this pack and I'm writing this scene, okay, I am writing this scene of packing my pack for the first time. And there's so much stuff and I'm in the Mojave Desert so I have to carry all this water and what happens is my pack is so heavy that I find that I can't lift it. And it's you know, in the book it's this comic scene. There's this woman alone in a motel room and she has a pack that she can't lift and she has to lift it. And when I wrote that scene, I realized that in fact I did have a book because I realized in writing that scene that I was telling a story that was bigger than the moment. And by which I mean I was writing about, you know how it is we bear the unbearable. You know, how we... and 'cause that was the moment of truth I faced there. And it's the moment of truth that all of you have faced at one point or another in your life and if you haven't yet I have bad news for you, you are going to. We've all had to bear what we believe we cannot bear. We've all had to figure that out for ourselves. And so then I was like, suddenly the whole thing opened up. And, and then the book, you know there was a lot of work and a lot of struggle, but that to me was the it's like the core, it's like the core story of the book. It's the meaning of the, the journey.

Don: Were you actually keeping notes on the trail as you were going? You were writing in your journal.

Cheryl: I was writing my journal, yeah... I didn't think of it as keeping notes in the way that a journalist would but I was keeping notes like a journalist. Most of the time, I mean, you know it's embarrassing, if you go online... At one point, I must have been drunk. Somebody convinced me to like release a few pages of my journal, from my hike. And you can see how utterly annoying and boring I actually am because it's so... the whole thing is just like how much my feet hurt which is just like the whole book. You know, and I'm like, every page I'm like, “oh, my god, my feet are killing me.” And so, I kept a journal and it ended up being really useful because often times because my journal was like my companion and so often times I would meet somebody on the trail and then we'd talk and they'd walk away and I'd immediately write down what we said. And I was, you know, as a fiction writer I was always I would write it like the scene that was. I would say... I would write gestures, I would write, I would put what somebody said in dialogue.

And so, you know, many of the scenes in Wild are obviously re-imagined from memory. But some of them, I can say no, I know this because I put it in my journal. You know, some of the more interesting or quirky things that people said to me. But also, when I could get in touch with people who I met along the way. I sought them out and would say, “you know, what do you remember about us together on the trail?” I also stayed friends, like the three young bucks I stayed friends with them. Especially with Rick, you might remember the guy who I had this little crush on. So, Rick and I never discussed our, you know, sexual tension.

And, so I'm writing Wild and I'm writing about how I have these feelings for him and I think he has these feelings for me and then I was like, this is going to be mortifying if he... when he reads the book, he's like, “Cheryl, I'm, like, gay,” you know. I mean... So... I did this one mortifying thing. I emailed Rick and I said “you know, we never spoke of this but, I just want to send you a passage of my book and I just would like to know you know, like, if you agree with, like, my read of the situation between us.” And so I sent it to him and, you know instantly I get this long email back, where he's like... finally confesses his, you know, love for me and... It's so funny, my husband is like, “what are you guys going to couple's counseling now?” And so we came clear about the old crush that we had back in '95 and we're friends.

But it was interesting, memory gets such a bad rap and I will say that most of the people in the book what they would say to me when I asked well, “what do you remember?” is that they remembered what I remembered. Right down to little, like what we ate. We always remembered exactly what we ate. Right. Because we were so hungry all the time.

Don: Right. So, I wanted to ask you about fear. And what you learned about fear.

Cheryl: One of the things I write in Wild is, you know, that I, that I decided before my hike that I wasn't going to be afraid. Because I knew that if I allowed fear to overtake me I just couldn't do it, I wouldn't go. Or I'd be out there and I'd run shrieking, you know, from the wilderness on night one. And I wanted to be able to do what I wanted to do. And I think that any... probably a lot of you in the room have had adventures and travels of your own. And you do have to, you do have to sort of, um, talk to yourself and say, I'm okay. Like, I can do this, I can do this even if it makes me feel uncomfortable and afraid. The first time I went hiking by myself was in Saguaro National Park in Arizona. And I remember distinctly, you know, just being afraid. But doing it anyway, and then by the end of the day I realized there was nothing to fear. And so, I was preparing myself I think in some ways you know, without knowing what I preparing myself for. So then when the time came when I thought, you know, I have completely ruined my life and I need to save it, I knew that a journey was going to be healing and redemptive and transformative to me. And I knew that I needed to do it alone. And, so I sort of worked myself, I guess into that place of necessary, you know, experience and courage to say I could do it alone.

Don: For me your, your story is such a cleansing and a purifying, there's something almost sacred ritualistic about it that you are getting away from the world so that you can engage with the world more deeply.

Cheryl: I realized that what I had done is I'd created my own rite of passage. When you look at these rites of passage throughout time they always have three things in common. Solitude, physical suffering, some sort of challenge, and depravation. And, that's what my hike was. Like, I gave myself the opportunity to do all of those things. And when you give yourself that opportunity what you find is who you are, you find your strength. And you also find your weakness. You, you, get in touch with what is both powerful and vulnerable about you.

Don: You're hugely, you've just struck this huge chord. I mean, we're all here because of that chord that nerve that you've struck. What do you think that is? What do you make of that?

Cheryl: Many things. I've had the opportunity to talk to people all over the world about Wild which has been really cool. And almost always, people, they begin talking to me about my book but within like the first sentence we're talking about their life. And I think that I wrote about... You know, I told my story as transparently and truthfully as I could. The story of the journey, you know the literal journey and also the story of my grief and my struggles and my sort of trying to come to my strength and you know, that sense of wholeness. And I think that that when you do that when you really speak as intimately and kind of truthfully as you can, you end up telling a universal story. We are... we have more in common than most of us know. And this is something over and over again you know, we all judge, we all judge each other based on how we look, we all think that we're different from each other. We have more in common than not.

And I get these emails over and over again people saying, “we have so much in common. It's so bizarre how much we have in common.” Always, like always. How many of you think you have a lot in common with me? But what's interesting is, it's actually not so bizarre. And I can tell you that because I'm on the other end of that. Millions of people think they have a bizarre number of things in common with me. But we all have a bizarre number of things in common, you know. Like I didn't think that I was so interesting so therefore, I should write a memoir. I really, sincerely... I didn't write Wild 'cause I took a hike. There are many people who have hiked further, better... You know, the point of Wild isn't that I took a hike. You know, I wrote Wild because I'm a writer and I wanted to just use that raw material to tell a kind of, you know, the... a universal story about, again, what it means to be human. Which sounds so grandiose but I think that that's what people are responding to. I think that people see themselves in, in works of literature, and when, when, when literature succeeds at what it attempts to do people see themselves in it. I mean this is why we still read Shakespeare. 'Cause it's about us. You know.

Don: Yeah. That's beautiful. How was it to see yourself being played? And how was it to... you seem to have developed an amazing bond with Reese Witherspoon and how was all of that experience?

Cheryl: It was so, it was... Both Reese and Laura are just, I have so much... we all became dear friends. and—

Don: And you weren't even supposed to be that a big part of the movie, were you?

Cheryl: No, yeah, it was all just, it all just ended up being like, really, a creative collaboration. They, you know, they were going to make the movie and I was like, “good luck,” you know, but then, we just liked each other we kept talking and we... and then, Jean-Marc Vallée came on who is this amazing, wonderful person. I love him like a brother. And he, you know, we just all meshed really well. And then I have, you know, I have a cameo in-- Have all of you seen the movie? So, did you see me in the truck? I play woman in the truck.

Don: You have a line. And it seems...

Cheryl: I have a line. And, it's good luck. And it turns out there's a lot of ways you can say good luck. So that performance was not nothing, you guys. Just so you know. But it is funny 'cause it's the perfect cameo but I will say, it's, you know, life sometimes just works out that way. We didn't plan it. What happened is all through the shoot we were like, you know, the director kept saying and Reese kept saying, “Cheryl has to have a cameo.” But I would always be like, “Let's do it another day.” I was always going to lose like five pounds before I did my cameo. Is anyone else like this? So, and then I would never lose five pounds... and so finally it's the last day of the shoot and we shot in Oregon the whole time. Except one day we went the last day we were in California and we actually shot in the place where I began my hike, so, in the movie where you see Reese... on the very first day she's dropped off on the side of the road and she puts on her backpack and starts hiking... That's exactly where I was. And it was so emotional to be back there with Reese, you know? In this very spot. And then also in the town of Mojave, where I drop her off.

We're actually in the town of Mojave. And she goes and checks into this cheap motel which is not the motel I was at, but, like, basically it, you know, like next door to it. So, it's literally the second to the last scene that we shot in the film was me with Reese and this old pickup truck. And my job is to pull up look at Reese she gets out she looks back at me through the open window I say “good luck.” And so, we're doing, we are gonna do this and suddenly I'm just like, gonna like, poop my pants. 'cause I'm so nervous. And I'm like, “Reese, I can't do this.” Like how do I say, good luck and suddenly, like, I just can't... Do you say “good luck!” Or do you say... I mean like, “what do you say?!” So, um... and all through this, the shooting... 'cause you know, it was Reese it's this big movie star but all these different actors would be like, you know, they'd work with Reese for a day and be like, she's so nice and she's so accessible and she made me feel comfortable. And you know, she was just the greatest. And so I'm alone with Reese, we're about to start rolling. And I say, “Reese you know, I'm actually a little bit nervous, you know this is scary to me, to say good luck and...” and... and... I was like, “What advice... you know, what advice do you have for me?” And she looks at me and she says, “just don't **** it up.” And... True story, true story. And I was like, “Oh, my god and so...” So, then... then I was like, “good luck, *****.”

Don: And... So, now you've done the book, you've done... the movie is out, You've become a kind of an iconic figure I think, in a way. And I am wondering how that feels?

Cheryl: Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I... I still, like, just pick up my kids at school and stuff. I mean, I... I think the thing that's been the coolest, is to have so many people, like, read my story and let it... it inspires their own. It inspires their lives. You know, I think that a lot of people have gone and done things that they wouldn't have done if they haven't read my book. And I love that. I know that feeling too, because I certainly was made braver by other writers who came before me. You know, people who... whose books I thought, “Wow! You can do that., you know?” And so I love that my book has served that function in the culture, for a lot of people. And not just people who go hike the Pacific Crest Trail. I mean, obviously that's great. But I get so many wonderful emails from people who say things like, “I never took a walk by myself.” You know, never just walked out my front door by myself. And, one of my favorite letters, this woman said, “I worked my way up so that I could go for an hour walk by myself.” And I just thought, that, to me, was so beautiful. Yeah. You know? And, I really have talked to so many different people from so many different walks of life. Both men and women who just share with me their stories and I'm just, I feel like... like, they're thanking me for the book but I thank them for the gift of, essentially, allowing me into their own lives, you know? So that to me is just incredibly... I'll never, I'll never stop being surprised by that experience.

Don: I saved one question for last, 'cause I love this question and it is: Tell me what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?

Cheryl: Oh dear! Love! I think to love and be loved. That is the meaning of life and that is the purpose of life. That's what I plan to do. Love.

Don: Ah, that's beautiful. I have to say something. Every single thing you've said has sort of resonated so deeply and powerfully with me up here on stage. I feel like a bell reverberating with... my head is nodding, nodding, nodding and I have a feeling everybody in the audience feels this way. I mean, you, you speak from your heart. You speak with such eloquence and passion and embracing humanity. The humanity that binds us all. It's just an incredible experience to be up here talking to you. I think we all had an incredible experience. Thank you.

Cheryl: Thank You very, very much. Thank You So much. Thank You.

Beyond Wild With Cheryl Strayed