Jodi Picoult: Leaving Time

Don George: I'm really excited about this conversation. I'm just going to jump right into it. You've written about so many subjects, 23 books. As far as I know, you've never written about elephants, so, I wanted to ask you first of all, what was the inspiration for Leaving Time?

Jodi Picoult: Well, it was... it had nothing to do with elephants at first actually. So, I have three kids, and my youngest is a daughter named Sammy. And she was getting ready to go off to college. And her brothers had already left, so, I was becoming an empty nester. And it upset me more than I thought it was going to. I was really thinking about what it would be like to be left behind. And somewhere in the middle of all that thought, I read an article, probably in the National Geographic magazine, that said that in the elephant kingdom in the wild, a mother and daughter elephant, stay together their whole lives, until one of them dies. And I read that fact and I thought, 'well why don't we do it that way?' I mean, it's much more humane, you know. And it kind of got me thinking and...and I began to do a little background research on elephants. And in particular, how their minds work. A lot of people love elephants, or you know, collect elephants, but don't necessarily realize the cognitive abilities that elephants have. They can feel grief and pain and loss and they have incredible memories. All of those things are part of the elephant brain and the more I learned about that, the more I realize this was the perfect metaphor for the book and that I had a profession for one of the main characters in the book.

-Oh. Part of the challenge of the book is that you are writing in different voices. You are writing in the voice of a scientist. Was it difficult as a writer to switch your brain to do that?

No, this book is the story of... this woman, Alice Metcalf, who studies elephant grief and cognition, and she runs a sanctuary with her husband and one night there's a horrible tragedy at the sanctuary. And a caregiver is trampled by an elephant. And the same night, Alice disappears off the face of the earth. And the only... the only person who is a witness is her three-year old daughter, Jenna. The problem is Jenna can remember none of it. And um... Jenna then begins the book ten years later, believing that her mother never would have left her willingly and that she is going to find this woman. And she enlists the help of a failed psychic named Serenity, and an alcoholic detective named Virgil. And the three of them are somehow going to find her mother. But you also get to hear from Alice, and the way you get to hear from her is the way Jenna gets to hear from her. By pouring over her research entries and her journals, and that's what Jenna's done for the past 10 years, is try to find her mother literally between the lines of what she's left behind.

-Right. One of the things that impressed me so much about the book was the beautiful, detailed descriptions of elephant behavior and just elephants. And so you must have done a lot of research for that, and I'm wondering how you went about doing that research.

Yeah. For this book, I knew that I needed to see both elephants in captivity and elephants in the wild. Because the main character in the book whose name is Alice Metcalf, who is actually missing for most of the book. She drives the book as her daughter Jenna tries to find her. Alice is an elephant researcher who studies grief and cognition in elephants. And she studies them in the wild in Botswana and then she runs sanctuary with her husband in New England. So, I began by doing research at a place called The Elephant Sanctuary, which is in Hohenwald, Tennessee. The elephants who come to live there are elephants who have been in circuses and zoos their entire life. And in many cases have been very horribly abused. Coming to the sanctuary means that they have hit the jackpot of retirement homes. So, I got to see how a sanctuary runs, which was really important for the book, because a lot of the action takes place in the sanctuary.

But I also needed to know what Alice's research was about. And so I went to Botswana and I worked with an elephant researcher who studies the migration of elephants in the Tuli Block. And, you know, I got to observe some incredible behaviors of elephants in their natural habitat, which were phenomenal. Everything that you read in the book is something that either I experienced or that I was told by someone at the sanctuary or by this researcher, so every story in there is true.

-Wow. How long were you at each place?

I was in... at the elephant sanctuary for just a smattering of days. It was couple of days, but it's, you know, it's 2700 acres, most of which I wouldn't be able to access by foot, because I'm not an elephant. And something that a lot of people don't realize is that elephants in captivity often die of foot problems, because they've been standing on concrete for so long and if you think about it in the wild an elephant gets to walk on top of different terrain. So, for example, there was an elephant at the sanctuary that had such severe cracks in her feet, that Teva... you know the Teva company that makes sandals? They made these giant Tevas for her and she wore these giant Tevas around for a while. Yeah.

And then when I was in Botswana, I was there for about a week. It was fantastic because you get up every morning and you would basically go on safari. And I got to see this fantastic matriarch. The matriarch is the female head of the herd, who runs the herd. She is usually the biggest elephant, and the one who has the most collective knowledge, often the oldest elephant. And she was leading her herd up this little incline and sliding down on her butt, over and over, like it was a little playground slide, and it was so much fun to watch this whole herd just keep doing it. And then we came across two young males, they had this giant dung ball which was kind of gross, but they were kicking it back and forth like it was soccer, just back and forth, it was totally play, there was no other reason for it. You know, so it was really fun to be able to see behaviors like that. –

-That's really, really great.

Yeah. Actually, so one of the behaviors that fascinated me because it is so interesting is, elephants grieving. There is a lot of elephant grieving in the book, because Alice Metcalf who is this missing mom... that her daughter, Jenna is trying find throughout the book, she studied elephant grief and that was what really amazed me the most and people say, “What's the coolest you learnt about elephants?” And it's that they do have this depth of understanding for loss that I would not have been able prior to this, to attribute to an animal. Elephants that come across the bones of another elephant will get very somber, their ears droop, their tails droop, they have a complete behavioral change. And what's really interesting is that they don't act this way around any other bones, it's just the bones of elephants. They have been known and very often return to the site where an elephant has died for years afterward, as if they are paying respects, like they are going to the grave site. And again, when they get there, they get very quiet, somber, reverential, they stay for a few hours, and then they move on. They've been known to break into research facilities in the middle of the night, and steal a bone that a researcher is working with, and bring it back to the site of that - elephant's death.

And at The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee, there's this great story about an elephant named Sissy. Sissy survived the 1981 floods in Gainesville... by basically being submerged for 24 hours with just her trunk up, like a little periscope. So, she was really traumatized by the time she came to the sanctuary and it took her very long time to bond with other elephants, which they let happen naturally, which of course is one of the issues with the zoos because you know, you can't just stick to elephants together and expect them to be friends. So, she instead of bonding with an elephant began to carry around a tire, like everywhere she went. It was like a security blanket, like a little pacifier. And for years, she carried this tire around, and then finally she bonded with an elephant named Tina. For years, they were inseparable, and then one day Tina got ill, and she died. When she died, Sissy stayed with her the whole time she was dying, stayed by her grave for a day after she died, and then very carefully, they watched her take that tire, and lay it on the grave, kinda like we place a wreath. And she left it there for her friend. As if she knew that her friend needed it more now.

-Wow. That's really amazing. Maybe, we should watch the clip on the elephant behavior. We have an amazing, wonderful clip about elephant behavior that we would like to share with you all tonight.

Joyce Poole: This is a large adult male named Stoney, and he's doing what we call tusk-ground or tusking the ground. Um, it's... look at him, he is so silly, look how he is right down on the ground, most of the males do this, um, when they're threatening another male, it's kind of a way of saying, this is what I am going to do with you if I get hold of you. Now, he is just looking at me. And, he's now starting to shake his head, and doing what I call a head waggle. Now, that's an invitation to play.

This is just really cute video of two young elephants, two juveniles, doing what we call play social rub. They are lying on the ground and just wiggling against each other. Elephants love to do this. Especially kind of in the late afternoon when they had a lot to eat, and they are feeling good. This was filmed in the evening. It was about an 11-year-old female and two infant calves that she was looking after. And she was so cute with them. She just laid down in this sort of dust wallow here and allowed them to clamber all over her. Look, watch this balancing act here where he, he tries to step on her, on her trunk, but it is little bit too wiggly, so then he decides, okay, he'll just step right on her face instead. She doesn't mind.

It's wonderful. It is so cool. And poaching, we haven't really touched on it yet, that's the sad thing about elephants that when you fall in love with them, then you begin to realize that they are being killed at a rate of 38,000 elephants a year. And by that estimate, they'll be gone in the wild in Africa in ten years. And I don't know about you, but I want my grandkids be able to see elephants, you know, so um... it became very important for me to learn about poaching, which I really didn't know much about and to... to figure out why it's important for us in this country, where we don't have elephants, to really support the initiatives to take care of elephants that are being threatened. We know that poaching is more than just a wildlife concern, it's a humanitarian concern. They've linked the money from poaching to Joseph Kony's Lord's Resistance Army. We know that Al-Shabaab poaches one to three tons of ivory every month in Somalia, raising $500,000 a month. That goes a really long way in Somalia and Al-Shabaab has ties to Al-Qaeda and that's why it matters in this country.

-Wow! Without you or someone like you writing about this, there is a small fraction of people in the world who would be aware of it, and especially in the United States. But everywhere that your books are being sold I just kinda felt like saying on behalf of the planet, thank you for that.

Wow, that's cool. I'll take that. No, I mean... It's really, you know what, there are... there are lot of reasons that people become writers. I'm really, really fortunate because I go to my office every day and I have the... the opportunity to entertain everyone. But I also have this potential to educate a little. Yeah. And I think if you can leave the world a better place in some small way, that's really important. Hopefully, that's what my books could do. They could teach you something you didn't know and maybe open your mind up a little in a direction that you didn't think you were going to have to go.

-Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So, I was thinking as a writer reading this, it's... a fascinating journey for you because on the one hand you get to become a scientist, you get to become a psychic... you get to become a detective. Do you feel enriched and... do you feel exhausted, do you feel enriched, do you... because you're becoming all these different people in the course of writing your book. How does that affect you?

I actually feel lucky. Yeah. I feel really lucky because I get to go to work and I'm someone different every day. I do not feel as if I have created Serenity or Virgil or Alice or Jenna. I feel like they are speaking through me. And I hear them. I hear them very clearly in my head, they talk to me, they sometimes wake me up at night because they are annoying and... and honestly you know, they... I've long said, my joke is that writing is successful schizophrenia. I get paid to hear voices. Right? There you go. You know, but that's real, I hear their voices. I feel as if you guys are, you know, you can't see the movie, you can't hear the movie, so it's my job to tell you what's being said. When I am... I know I am close to finishing a draft, I can already hear other people whispering like - ready.

-Really? Wow. Oh. I'm sure there are people in the audience who have questions that they brought with them tonight and...

Right, so, there's only one rule, which is if you give away the ending of any of my books, - I'm going to kill you. Right. So, right, keep that in mind.

-There was a question right there.

Woman: Hi. Hi. What is... what was the hardest and easiest part of getting started as a writer with your very first book?

The easiest part about getting to be a writer, honestly was, um, having the great good fortune and the grades to get into Princeton. Because at the time in the 80s, there were not many undergraduate creative writing programs, there were lot of graduate schools, but not undergrad. And I had the opportunity to work with living breathing writers, in particular one who really shepherded me into becoming my own best editor which I think is the most essential tool for a writer. I actually spent a two-year period, and this is the hardest part, trying to find an agent. I had over 100 rejections from agents. A lot of people would write me, and they are like, Yeah, you know, I just got back my third rejection, I don't know if I could do this, and I'd just go, yeah, okay, whatever. You know, that is the hardest part, honestly, of being a writer. I think, believing in yourself enough that somebody eventually takes the second look. One person has to really fall for it. You know and that kind of makes the odds feel a little bit better.

-Let's come down to the front please.

So, I have a question about My Sister's Keeper. It was the first book I read and it totally got me hooked on you. But when I was so excited for the movie, after seeing it, I wondered what your opinion was on the change.

So tactfully said. So, here's the thing about... about selling books for... into movies, um, what most of you don't realize is that the writer does not have any say over what happens. There are exceptions, but in the vast majority of cases, you sell your property to a studio and then they do whatever they want to do. And you are not asked for any, you know, any contributions whatsoever. Um... it's like giving a baby up for adoption. And we writers try really hard to... to find a good home for a baby.

But sometimes it doesn't work out. And, in my case, um, you know, I was actually asked to try and... and interview Nick Cassavetes, the director, before he was hired. And I said to him that what was... the only thing that was really important to me in the book that should stay the same was the ending. And I explained that, it was what had sold, all these copies of the book, people going, I can't tell you what happened, just read it, so we can talk, you know. And so he read the book, and he said, you're right, that's the only ending for this story, I'm not going to change it. If anyone else does, I'm going to tell you why and I'm going to tell you myself. And I thought, that's fair. And he spent two years writing a script, he would call me weekly, I would help him whenever he asked, with character, with dialogue, with scenes, whatever. And he would read me stuff. And, um, then at the end of that process, a fan wrote me an email saying they've gotten a script of My Sister's Keeper and did... she worked at a casting agency, and did I know that they had changed the ending. So, I called Nick at home and he wouldn't take my call. I went to the movie set and he threw me off the set. I went to Newline Cinema and I spoke to the head, Toby Emmerich, and I said, “You guys are going to lose money on this film because I have the best fans in the world and they are not going to be happy with what you did.” And he said, “No, no, you know, we really trust Nick, he did The Notebook for us, he knows what he is doing,” and I said, “okay” and I walked away.

And of course, the movie was not successful. It's a beautiful movie, Nick filmed a beautiful movie with wonderful acting performances, about dying with dignity. That is not what the book is about. That's his interpretation, but it's not what I thought the book should be about. And many of my wonderful fans agreed and the movie lost money. And the really cool silver lining here is that ever since then, um... I have had more clout in Hollywood because I apparently am psychic and I told them they were going to lose money. So that's kind of cool. But it was not a pleasant experience. Would it mean that I wouldn't do it again? No, because ultimately let's be real in most cases the book is always better than the film, right? And for those of you, who went to go see My Sister's Keeper and were as disappointed as I was, the good news is that you get to go home and pull that book off the shelf and read the story the way it should be. Right?

-Yeah. Um, gentleman in the blue shirt here.

Man: Hi, my wife and I are both the oldest of four. And I've had a lot of discussions and hardship with my relationship with my mother, because I was the one who started... - everyone leaving. So, you really said that this was the core... for the book. How did this and this journey of writing it help you with what you were going through?

That's a great question. It really did help me. Most of my books are really my therapy session for all of you to watch. You know, it's something that I'm really struggling with and, and I wrestle it out and throw it at other characters, but really I'm talking about something that's upsetting to me. And you know, for me it really was that, that sense, okay, elephants and... elephants, moms and daughters they stay together forever, so what does that really mean for humans. When people leave us, do they ever really leave? And I think that was really, that was really the end point that I came to. Physical distance means nothing. That's details... that when you love someone, they are always with you. Right.

-So, we have a... this girl in purple and black.

What kind of events inspire you to write, because, like in your book, Nineteen Minutes, Peter Houghton goes on a shooting rampage in his school. So, is it events like this that inspire you to write?

I could write about any number of really devastating topics or things that are very upsetting. But I think there's more to it than that. I don't rip things out of the headlines. What I need to do is to find something that has intersected in my life at that moment in a way that really moves me deeply. And what moves me today, might not be what moves me in five years. So, a book that I think, “That's interesting, but not that interesting right now,” could completely change five years from now. I could be dying to write that book. So, there is this, it's a dual feed, part of it is, things that I hear about, things that I read about in the world that... that I have a curiosity about. And the other part of it is where I am in my own life. It's funny, because, I sometimes think, you know very self-servingly about 'Jodi Picoult 101', which is going to be taught clearly one day in college... And, you know, if you look at the trajectory of my career, my very first book was about a mother and a daughter. This book is about a mother and a daughter again. What's the difference? When I wrote my first book, I was closer in age to the daughter. Now, I'm closer in age to the mother. And in between I wrote about the relationships between men and women, because I got married. Then I wrote about all the really scary things that can happen to your children, because I had children. It was like a whole run of that for many years. And now, you know, I'm moving into more theoretical stuff, the nature of good and evil, you know, and... and race for example, things that are bigger, because that's... I have the luxury of worrying about those things and not just worrying about my kids anymore. I keep telling my mom that one day I'm going to write about putting your parents in a nursing home. She's really happy to hear that.

-Great. That's great. Well, on behalf of all of us, thank you so much for sharing. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Thank you.